Paul condemns 'porneia'

LS2
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Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by LS2 »

So I'm rereading and studying Paul. One thing I learnt is that throughout the texts (for example in 1 Thess 4:3), Paul forbids porneia, which translates as sexual immorality. In the past, Horrux and I had a discussion about whether or not anal sex is 'degenerate' even in a heterosexual relationship. I found this a strange idea, because it isn't forbidden anywhere in the Old Testament (only homosexual relations are). What I care about are conservative values in general. I know that it's tolerated in both Judaism and Islam. But it turns out that porneia includes a whole range of sexual relations. It seems to be that when sense enjoyment becomes the object of sex, it starts becoming porneia. A woman lying on top already falls under this category, as do oral and anal sex. At least, that was the original meaning.

So there you have it. Right there in the NT is a basis for Horrux's point of view. I know, of course, that lots of Christians condemn anal sex, but I thought that those were later ideas and that people at one point became more strict about what kind of sexual intercourse is and isn't allowed. Now I learnt that there's a scriptural basis. To Paul, chastity is the ideal, and he tolerates marriage because he knows not everyone can control himself. But even inside marriage, lust should be controlled as much as possible.

I learnt this from Dale Martin, but Bart Ehrman wrote a brief blog post about it as well.

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Horrux
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by Horrux »

Interestingly, there are Christian monks who practice masturbation without ejaculation in order to "talk to God". It is said that by doing this, they are able to open a channel to 'God himself' and have conversations with Him. They also say that if you ejaculate, then "God doesn't want to talk to you anymore".

To me, the meaning of this is simple and clear. The "power" behind ejaculation is God's power to create new people, new life. Thus it is sacred. When it is gifted to man, it is gifted STRAIGHT from Him. He is, after all "our creator". This power to create life is holy and comes from God himself, and wasting it for the simple pleasure of feeling it coursing through our bodies is sinful. It is literally wasting life and also wasting God's grace. So then that makes the individual go from being on the side of Life (and God) to being on the side of death (its opposite) and of ... Satan? Either way, it's not good and God isn't talking to you anymore if you do it. For a certain time. About a month, more or less.

The Nazis were cognizant of this, and they perfected their knowledge by visiting the Tibetans and other wise people in the East. They called it the VRIL energy, and some say that the Atlanteans were also practicioners of the ways of VRIL.

Basically accumulating VRIL (or Prana or Chi or various other names depending on the time and place) in the body let somebody become "weighty" in life, meaning their decisions, their willpower would be particularly effective. Apparently Jeffery Epstein used those young girls to this effect.

To return to the original topic, it seems very obvious to me that ejaculating in somebody's anus is more than wasting the power of creating life, it is a direct insult to God. Aleister Crowley, great satanist, was an avid fan of anal rape of minors, and this obviously constitutes an even greater insult to one's creator. In words, it could be summed up thusly: "I take this power to create life that you give me and I create suffering and pain with it. I am debasing it as much as I can. FUCK YOU GOD."
CrystalVulpine
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by CrystalVulpine »

You can't really study "Paul"; because chances are whatever you're reading is a later interpolation by some commentator. That's the real reason Paul's works make no sense, because he's constantly being interrupted by random additions to his original writing, some of them chapters long; and it's also why he has so many different voices at random (because only one of them is really him).

As far as I can tell, porneia means something like prostitution or whoring. But Paul evidently agreed with me that sex is problematic in general.
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by CrystalVulpine »

Horrux wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:13 pm Interestingly, there are Christian monks who practice masturbation without ejaculation in order to "talk to God". It is said that by doing this, they are able to open a channel to 'God himself' and have conversations with Him. They also say that if you ejaculate, then "God doesn't want to talk to you anymore".

To me, the meaning of this is simple and clear. The "power" behind ejaculation is God's power to create new people, new life. Thus it is sacred. When it is gifted to man, it is gifted STRAIGHT from Him. He is, after all "our creator". This power to create life is holy and comes from God himself, and wasting it for the simple pleasure of feeling it coursing through our bodies is sinful. It is literally wasting life and also wasting God's grace. So then that makes the individual go from being on the side of Life (and God) to being on the side of death (its opposite) and of ... Satan? Either way, it's not good and God isn't talking to you anymore if you do it. For a certain time. About a month, more or less.

The Nazis were cognizant of this, and they perfected their knowledge by visiting the Tibetans and other wise people in the East. They called it the VRIL energy, and some say that the Atlanteans were also practicioners of the ways of VRIL.

Basically accumulating VRIL (or Prana or Chi or various other names depending on the time and place) in the body let somebody become "weighty" in life, meaning their decisions, their willpower would be particularly effective. Apparently Jeffery Epstein used those young girls to this effect.

To return to the original topic, it seems very obvious to me that ejaculating in somebody's anus is more than wasting the power of creating life, it is a direct insult to God. Aleister Crowley, great satanist, was an avid fan of anal rape of minors, and this obviously constitutes an even greater insult to one's creator. In words, it could be summed up thusly: "I take this power to create life that you give me and I create suffering and pain with it. I am debasing it as much as I can. FUCK YOU GOD."
This is Satanic propaganda. There's no law or commandment against ejaculating. Your logic is that of nature and fertility religions, things which are very clearly wordly, fleshly, and opposed to Christianity (and that the modern church does nothing but make excuses for them changes nothing). It aligns with Plato's philosophy. It's also convenient for the church to have control over one of the most powerful biological needs, and that's the reason they're so obsessed with it. They aren't Christians, they use Christianity as a means to ensure the survival of their tribe, which includes commanding people to marry and have as many babies as possible. If they were Christian they wouldn't be calling Jesus's teachings subversive. All they care about is their own traditions and the things of this world, and scaring people into obedience. If you never ejaculate you'll be desperate and easy to manipulate. If you do you'll be more grounded and harder to control. Why place a snare for yourself?
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by CrystalVulpine »

Also, Leviticus 18:22:
וְאֶת־זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא
And with a male you shall not lie a woman's lyings; it is (something bad, we don't know the word exactly).
Nothing explicitly against homosexual relations here. It's clearly either anal sex or having relations with a married man. This verse has been unclear for centuries, only recently did theologians find it a convenient place to sneak in an anti-gay remark. Nearly every modern Bible intentionally mistranslates מִשְׁכְּבֵי as "as with" rather than "lyings of", even interlinears, and this is because every single one of them is controlled and funded by fundamentalists.
Horrux
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by Horrux »

CrystalVulpine wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:43 pm This is Satanic propaganda. There's no law or commandment against ejaculating. Your logic is that of nature and fertility religions, things which are very clearly wordly, fleshly, and opposed to Christianity (and that the modern church does nothing but make excuses for them changes nothing). It aligns with Plato's philosophy. It's also convenient for the church to have control over one of the most powerful biological needs, and that's the reason they're so obsessed with it. They aren't Christians, they use Christianity as a means to ensure the survival of their tribe, which includes commanding people to marry and have as many babies as possible. If they were Christian they wouldn't be calling Jesus's teachings subversive. All they care about is their own traditions and the things of this world, and scaring people into obedience. If you never ejaculate you'll be desperate and easy to manipulate. If you do you'll be more grounded and harder to control. Why place a snare for yourself?
Absolute drivel.
Horrux
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by Horrux »

CrystalVulpine wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:14 pm Also, Leviticus 18:22:

Nothing explicitly against homosexual relations here. It's clearly either anal sex or having relations with a married man. This verse has been unclear for centuries, only recently did theologians find it a convenient place to sneak in an anti-gay remark. Nearly every modern Bible intentionally mistranslates מִשְׁכְּבֵי as "as with" rather than "lyings of", even interlinears, and this is because every single one of them is controlled and funded by fundamentalists.
Jewish things of the Old Testament have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. Not for no reason is Jesus known to have said, "I bring new truth" or something like that.
Horrux
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by Horrux »

CrystalVulpine wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:43 pm This is Satanic propaganda. There's no law or commandment against ejaculating. Your logic is that of nature and fertility religions, things which are very clearly wordly, fleshly, and opposed to Christianity (and that the modern church does nothing but make excuses for them changes nothing). It aligns with Plato's philosophy. It's also convenient for the church to have control over one of the most powerful biological needs, and that's the reason they're so obsessed with it. They aren't Christians, they use Christianity as a means to ensure the survival of their tribe, which includes commanding people to marry and have as many babies as possible. If they were Christian they wouldn't be calling Jesus's teachings subversive. All they care about is their own traditions and the things of this world, and scaring people into obedience. If you never ejaculate you'll be desperate and easy to manipulate. If you do you'll be more grounded and harder to control. Why place a snare for yourself?
Leviticus 22:4 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
None of the offspring of Aaron who has a leprous disease or a discharge may eat of the holy things until he is clean. Whoever touches anything that is unclean through contact with the dead or a man who has had an emission of semen,

Leviticus 15:16-18 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“If a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening. And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening. If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
This is the law for him who has a discharge and for him who has an emission of semen, becoming unclean thereby;

Leviticus 15:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening.

Proverbs 5:15-23 ESV / 29 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Drink water from your own cistern, flowing water from your own well. Should your springs be scattered abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be for yourself alone, and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love. ...

1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV / 25 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
CrystalVulpine
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by CrystalVulpine »

Horrux wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2023 1:31 am Leviticus 22:4 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
None of the offspring of Aaron who has a leprous disease or a discharge may eat of the holy things until he is clean. Whoever touches anything that is unclean through contact with the dead or a man who has had an emission of semen,

Leviticus 15:16-18 ESV / 10 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“If a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening. And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening. If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:32 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
This is the law for him who has a discharge and for him who has an emission of semen, becoming unclean thereby;

Leviticus 15:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen, both of them shall bathe themselves in water and be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with water and be unclean until the evening.

Proverbs 5:15-23 ESV / 29 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Drink water from your own cistern, flowing water from your own well. Should your springs be scattered abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be for yourself alone, and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love. ...

1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV / 25 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
This is an Israelite guide to avoiding disease. The rules for regular sex are exactly the same.
Horrux
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by Horrux »

CrystalVulpine wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:03 pm This is an Israelite guide to avoiding disease. The rules for regular sex are exactly the same.
No, it's about the weather, that way you can keep being a degenerate and keep believing you're a good Christian. What a sham.
CrystalVulpine
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Re: Paul condemns 'porneia'

Post by CrystalVulpine »

Horrux wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:55 pm No, it's about the weather, that way you can keep being a degenerate and keep believing you're a good Christian. What a sham.
See, I knew it would come to this. You don't have a real response at this point, so you're resorting to ad hominem attacks. This notion of piety that you're buying into is exactly what the Pharisees supported, and how they justified getting Jesus brutally executed for nothing. He left his bed on Saturdays and didn't hate goyim, so he wasn't a "good Jew".
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Was Marcion's gospel first?

Post by LS2 »

This is now the general Bible thread. The forum will look really ugly if it's a bunch of (nearly) empty thread, so I will reuse threads as much as possible.

Just the other day, MythVision Podcast did a live episode called Was Marcion's Gospel first? You might be interested @CrystalVulpine.

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